Curse

RhanoctJocosa · May 18, 2010, 09:22 AM // 09:22

imo, veil was #1 in TA because your team actually made use of the windows you created for them, but in RA i rarely use it because most ppl suck and you end up taking so much damage from them attacking through emp, etc. and run out of energy real fast. some monks still pull it off though so idk. i'm a fan of cop + spotless so +1 to that. in saying that, if their n or me is keeping your vig spirit down all game you really get punished because you have to spend 15e to remove a covered hex :S (say backfire + wastrels)

Sethellington · May 18, 2010, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paddatoochie

14 Blood
13 Soul Reaping
3 motivation

N/P

It's Just a Flesh Wound
Masochism
Barbed Signet
Signet of less souls (not sure about this)
Dark Pact
Life Siphon
Opressive Gaze
Res sig

I wonder how well this works... I don't think I'd run this bar exactly, might run some sort of curses hybrid, like:

11+1+1 Blood
10+1 Curses
10+1 SR

It's Just a Flesh Wound
Barbed Signet
Life Siphon
Oppresive Gaze
Faintheartedness
Defile Defense
Strip
Res

or something..? Might be a little energy intensive :/

AtomicMew · May 18, 2010, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Why the heck would you run IJAFW when you have FF?

Sethellington · May 18, 2010, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

Why the heck would you run IJAFW when you have FF?

bar compression imo. If you run FF, you need Plague sending. Besides, it's an instant condition removal every 2 seconds. And the short IMS can help kite/chase kiters. Dunno, I haven't tried it yet. Might give it a shot tomorrow or something.

Jam Jar · May 18, 2010, 07:10 PM // 19:10

I have a fairly good view on Spotless Mind. I used to pass up on it because of the easy enchant removal and slow condi removal, but the three removals and constant application is always nice.

Ariena Najea · May 18, 2010, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sethellington

bar compression imo. If you run FF, you need Plague sending. Besides, it's an instant condition removal every 2 seconds. And the short IMS can help kite/chase kiters. Dunno, I haven't tried it yet. Might give it a shot tomorrow or something.

FF + PS are terrific in RA. As for people kiting, people generally don't in RA. Monks do from time to time, but not as much since Dolyak Signet is seeing more play.

AtomicMew · May 18, 2010, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Anyway, I've seen people run corrupt spear builds. Seems like a winner, IMO.

Zuranthium · May 18, 2010, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

in other words, if you're low (120< hp) you'll still die if your bf gets covered.

you can use deny on yourself in case you didnt drop veil fast enough or if you didnt maintain it on yourself.

Contemplation is not a spell, so it doesn't trigger Backfire. Yeah you'll die if you didn't get the enchants up and your health is that low, of course, but then no Monk bar is going to survive if you've been pushed into that corner. Also..going by what you've said so far it would seem this is your bar:

WoH, Patient, Vig, Veil, Deny, Divine Spirit, Bonetti's, Wary Stance

Which means no condi removal. I'm not going to go unsynced into RA without a way to remove blind off my team. Sitting around for 8 minutes to get a draw match is such a waste of time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

spotless might not get rupted, but it can very well be removed.

and his last line is quite accurate, because if a team cannot accomplish anything when clean for 2-3 mins (vs another good team) chances you will wipe are fairly considerate.

You can't keep your team clean with the bar you're running so I'm not sure what you're talking about. Spotless can be removed but then so can Veil. At least it doesn't get interrupted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

and why's that? the only counter veil+vig argument i can come up with is rend/strip ench which applies for cop and spotless just as much.

The amount of energy you spend trying to maintain the Veils is ultimately not worth it. There are other forms of pressure often mixed in with hexes. With CoP if you get stripped you can respond with a 1/4 sec cast enchant and then your 1/4 sec removal. If you have Veil an interrupt is often camping you; after the strip it becomes difficult to get off when you most need it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

i.e. who can disrupt most hexes and also d shot or shutdown word in one way or the other vs who doesnt. veil gives you a huge edge on the former whilst cop might give you a slight edge on the latter (at least after the innitial few mins of the match).

The initial part of the match is actually when Veil does help. Afterwards Veil getting off is much more difficult and the energy to maintain becomes more of a problem. I don't really find that having those initial pulls right away helps as much as other options. It depends too much on killing them right away. Spotless over time is more stable and more efficient. What you say about disruption also assumes your team has disruption. You shouldn't count on that and you don't need to count on that. A bunch of good damage characters can get to 25.

Sethellington · May 19, 2010, 07:24 AM // 07:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Contemplation is not a spell, so it doesn't trigger Backfire.

I think he was referring to:

Quote:

If you have Vigorous Spirit on yourself beforehand, you can throw up a Patient and then use CoP to get the buried hex off.

That is a spell, and at 14 Dom BF will hit you for 133

urania · May 19, 2010, 07:34 AM // 07:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Contemplation is not a spell, so it doesn't trigger Backfire. Yeah you'll die if you didn't get the enchants up and your health is that low, of course, but then no Monk bar is going to survive if you've been pushed into that corner. Also..going by what you've said so far it would seem this is your bar:

WoH, Patient, Vig, Veil, Deny, Divine Spirit, Bonetti's, Wary Stance

Which means no condi removal. I'm not going to go unsynced into RA without a way to remove blind off my team. Sitting around for 8 minutes to get a draw match is such a waste of time.

im sure i mentioned this before, but the downside of not having cond removal is far lesser in comp to not having sufficient hex removal and veil cover (ie vig spirit). as soon as i replace a single skill in that bar it becomes suboptimal.
if i wanna play a bar with cond removal i take mel resilience boon prot with draw.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

You can't keep your team clean with the bar you're running so I'm not sure what you're talking about. Spotless can be removed but then so can Veil. At least it doesn't get interrupted.

a covered veil can only really be removed with strip or rend (in which case you can immediatly reapply it). and they usually try to rupt you after they cast hexes on a target, not after they remove veils, so you know when to fake it (under divine spirit).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

The amount of energy you spend trying to maintain the Veils is ultimately not worth it. There are other forms of pressure often mixed in with hexes. With CoP if you get stripped you can respond with a 1/4 sec cast enchant and then your 1/4 sec removal. If you have Veil an interrupt is often camping you; after the strip it becomes difficult to get off when you most need it.

it is worth it if your team can capitalise on that; if not ill very likely leave after 1st match (with a few very rare exceptions). mind that i only maintain 3 or more veils for as log as divine spirit is up (and once its recharged), oftherwise 2 are the maximum. and as said, they usually interrupt you once the hexes land, not before it. moreover, cop is still useless vs good old diversion (and yes, it still comes by in a dom bar).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

The initial part of the match is actually when Veil does help. Afterwards Veil getting off is much more difficult and the energy to maintain becomes more of a problem. I don't really find that having those initial pulls right away helps as much as other options. It depends too much on killing them right away. Spotless over time is more stable and more efficient. What you say about disruption also assumes your team has disruption. You shouldn't count on that and you don't need to count on that. A bunch of good damage characters can get to 25.

it depends on disrupting their key skills and putting up pressure they cannot cope with for long, which eventually leads to victory if played out properly.
a good use of spotless (against a necro, at least) will need a vig cover, so you'll be spending 10 energy on it each and every time (or risk it be removed).
oh and trust me, you either get a team with proper disruption or you more often than not dont get further than 10-15 wins.
raw damage can only do as much - i wouldnt count on constantly facing teams with bad monks (or no monk teams), if i were you.

Zuranthium · May 19, 2010, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

im sure i mentioned this before, but the downside of not having cond removal is far lesser in comp to not having sufficient hex removal and veil cover (ie vig spirit). as soon as i replace a single skill in that bar it becomes suboptimal.
if i wanna play a bar with cond removal i take mel resilience boon prot with draw.

Depends on what you face. You seem to be stuck too much in the TA mentality, where you always have the FF Necro by your side. In RA it's not uncommon to face super defensive teams that refuse to resign...crap like 2 monks + blindbot. If you don't have the condi removal, it's almost surely just going to become a tie match (ie a loss) and ruin the streak you were on. Very annoying. My bar does fine against hexes, I'd rather not fall prey to a single point of weakness that will cause a loss.

Mel Resilience is terrible, btw.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

A covered veil can only really be removed with strip or rend (in which case you can immediatly reapply it). and they usually try to rupt you after they cast hexes on a target, not after they remove veils, so you know when to fake it (under divine spirit).

Divine Spirit does help but, keeping in mind my thoughts about condi removal, it's ultimately just not worth it to me. You're basically dedicating 3 slots to your hex removal (Veil/Deny/Divine Spirit) whereas I'm using 2 and still have just as much raw removal, considering Spotless can be on multiple allies a good amount of the time and remove a hex every 5 seconds and CoP can remove multiple hexes from myself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

it is worth it if your team can capitalise on that; if not ill very likely leave after 1st match (with a few very rare exceptions)

Hex removal isn't a quick condition to win just because they have hexes, though. You yourself feel that your bar should almost always be able to hold up and not die through pressure. How do you expect your own team to quickly defeat the opposing team if they have similar amounts of defense then? You can't have it both ways. It comes down to longer wars of attrition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

oh and trust me, you either get a team with proper disruption or you more often than not dont get further than 10-15 wins.

A good ranger is of course king in 4v4. You don't NEED it to get the 25 wins, though. I wouldn't at all mind getting a team of 3 (good) Assassins if I'm on Monk.

thefinalxD · May 19, 2010, 07:55 PM // 19:55

karla, uranthium is right. there's no point in taking so much hex removal but no condi removal. i would hate to be a melee on your team karla, there's so much blind and weakness in RA.
i agree good veil work is amazing, but a monk without condi removal is lol.
taking spotless and contemplate lets u take draw, thats why its better.

Paddatoochie · May 19, 2010, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariena Najea

FF + PS are terrific in RA. As for people kiting, people generally don't in RA. Monks do from time to time, but not as much since Dolyak Signet is seeing more play.

People also underestimate the power of being able to remove conditions whenever with only the fear of diversion. JAFW Is uninterruptable and you can remove conditions whenever. You cast a res sig and you can remove two team players conditions while you're doing it. Can sometimes be game breaking... Somtimes :P

Sankt Hallvard · May 19, 2010, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paddatoochie

People also underestimate the power of being able to remove conditions whenever with only the fear of diversion. JAFW Is uninterruptable and you can remove conditions whenever. You cast a res sig and you can remove two team players conditions while you're doing it. Can sometimes be game breaking... Somtimes :P

IJAFW is a worthy elite, but the fact remains it's still elite compared to ff/ps. Both of which are at least "half elite" each. As long as you go nec primary you're at least a little bit retarded for going /p for IJAFW. (imho!)

This is coming from a guy who's been running nothing but a IJAFW para in ra lately btw.

Ariena Najea · May 19, 2010, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paddatoochie

People also underestimate the power of being able to remove conditions whenever with only the fear of diversion. JAFW Is uninterruptable and you can remove conditions whenever. You cast a res sig and you can remove two team players conditions while you're doing it. Can sometimes be game breaking... Somtimes :P

FF is only 1/4 cast time, which means it will only get rupted by the randoms. You also get some energy back, which is not the case with JAFW. Shout is definitely better than 1/4 cast time, but in this case it's not worth the Elite. Perhaps on a different midliner, but not on a Necro with FF access.

---

Going into RA without condition removal while Monking is asking for long, boring matches (see also: playing Bsurge). Apart from the Assassins (easy to play), most of the physicals have extreme difficulty scoring kills as it is, and don't need Weakness and Blind on them. Unless you get a team with a MB Ele, Stoning nonsense, or other midliner with reasonable offensive pressure, your damage output will be minimal. When going for glad points, I *always* bring Draw for conditions, and two hex removals, since I don't want a potential 25 streak to take 3 hours. Even when I occasionally run MR, I still bring dual hex removal (Veil + Deny, with Divine Spirit) to keep things clean.

Corporeal Ghost · May 20, 2010, 12:20 AM // 00:20

Whether or not one has condition removal is irrelevant to the fact that Veil is the best non-elite skill at combating hexes, with or without disruption on your team. In a few hours of playing in the last week or so, I've not found interrupts to be a problem, which seems to be the main argument against.

And for the record, I run Veil, Spotless, Draw.

Also for the record, when playing warrior, it is far easier to combat condition-based shutdown than hex-based shutdown because of both shorter duration and the fact that you generally only need to take down one skill instead of the entire curses line. Basically, I'd rather be hex-free and have to do something about a BSurge than have a Faint stick for half a match. I understand the prevailing mentality that most RA players do not have the brains/patience/skillbar/sauce to do this, but those are not the guys you're taking to 25 anyway. There are very few team setups that do not have disruption that are capable of winning in a reasonable amount of time.

Edit:
On the Forceful Blow bar, mostly agree with the above analysis. It feels like a crappier version of Warrior's Endurance, which still puts it quite high on the power curve. The primary problem is it plays more like a Dervish, and I don't think I'd really want one of those in RA. DChop and/or knockdown chains are too valuable. It's probably quite a bit better somewhere you don't need to keep yourself clean, although the current mentality makes it extremely difficult to win via damage overload in those circumstances.

Symbol · May 20, 2010, 01:25 AM // 01:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

On the Forceful Blow bar, mostly agree with the above analysis. It feels like a crappier version of Warrior's Endurance, which still puts it quite high on the power curve.

The raw dps is actually substantially higher than WE if you spam protector's strike, minus the spammable DW. It's basically huge damage + stance removal + big spike at the cost of your shield and with a conditional DW.

Quote:

The primary problem is it plays more like a Dervish, and I don't think I'd really want one of those in RA. DChop and/or knockdown chains are too valuable.

IMO if you must play melee in RA (which is a losing battle in the first place), specialization is better than the token disruption Dchop will give you. Against dedicated hex templates disabling one of their hexes isn't going to save you unless you have teammates with additional shutdown/removal to cover the gap. Plus dchop is extremely iffy at twitching 1s casts so actually relying on it to catch the nasty stuff isn't going to work--by the time you make a window for yourself your team's probably half dead.

Quote:

It's probably quite a bit better somewhere you don't need to keep yourself clean, although the current mentality makes it extremely difficult to win via damage overload in those circumstances.

As a warrior keeping yourself clean in RA through disruption is a hopeless battle. Your interrupts can't keep up and your KD chain won't prevent them from hexing you when they get up 3-6 secs later (qknocks aside). Dev hammer is nice because it's resistant to punishment hexes to a degree--they can hurt you, but they can't really stop you from knocklocking someone which might allow your team to get something done, but it's not actually going to keep you from getting hexed/blinded/weakened.

IMO, If you're not going to go with dev hammer, it's best to just pour on the damage and hope for teammates who can handle the rest.

Damage overload is actually a pretty sound strategy in RA since 3 big domage templates + monk is enough to brute force your way past teams with a single source of shutdown, and getting maximum benefit from utility requires coordination that you just won't find in RA.

Zuranthium · May 20, 2010, 03:11 AM // 03:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

Whether or not one has condition removal is irrelevant to the fact that Veil is the best non-elite skill at combating hexes, with or without disruption on your team.

The power if pre-veiling can be pretty awesome. I bring it over Cure Hex when playing WoH in GvG if we are planning to split. I just don't find that it works best for RA anymore.

The longer cast time of Veil isn't more cumbersome just because of the interrupt issue, it's also a matter of time spent. More time casting means less time throwing your spear, which means less healing from Vig Spirit and less adrenaline gain for Bonetti's. Spotless Mind also removes a greater quantity of hexes, which I find more useful for RA. It may be less precise at getting the really bad hexes off others right away, but it costs less energy (since you aren't sitting there maintaining a Veil) and it removes a greater quantity of hexes for the energy spent as well. Removing cover hexes like Life Siphon actually has a more noticeable effect in 4v4 than GvG. Without party heals around, getting rid of that degen and preventing the regen on the Necro is more significant over time.

You already bring Spotless, though. The difference in our skill choices is Veil vs. CoP. Veil lets you remove hexes from others better but I find that Spotless is good enough. A significant amount of hexes are going to be targeted on you, especially from a VoR mes. The quicker cast of CoP is very favorable (slightly quicker recharge too), along with the double removal potential. Plus it removes conditions and heals, giving it a use outside of just hex removal.

urania · May 20, 2010, 08:25 AM // 08:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Depends on what you face. You seem to be stuck too much in the TA mentality, where you always have the FF Necro by your side. In RA it's not uncommon to face super defensive teams that refuse to resign...crap like 2 monks + blindbot. If you don't have the condi removal, it's almost surely just going to become a tie match (ie a loss) and ruin the streak you were on. Very annoying. My bar does fine against hexes, I'd rather not fall prey to a single point of weakness that will cause a loss.

Mel Resilience is terrible, btw.

what worked best in TA works best in RA too.

ff+ps necro is the ideal midline support you wanna get on your team, but a mend touch ranger is just as good - i actually did face 2 monks and a b surge ele (and a linebacking hammer warrior) just yesterday and we managed to get a kill (after a while) thanks to ranger rupting the blinds (was a dual blinder with b surge+bflash) and thanks to our frontline having signet of malice.
just for the record, 2 monks can grief you out even when you have cond removal - it really needs at least a half competent team to eliminate 2 decent monks.
the one time i lost to b surge was when i had 2 useless sins and a warrior on my team. and even that only because they also had a dom mesmer and an apply poison ranger both camping me for 8 mins straight.

mel resilience monks are A LOT of fun and can really own cond and/or hex pressure teams, but they just die to strong stance removal such as wild strike or wild throw/blow and to ele based teams if your team doesnt kill fast enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Divine Spirit does help but, keeping in mind my thoughts about condi removal, it's ultimately just not worth it to me. You're basically dedicating 3 slots to your hex removal (Veil/Deny/Divine Spirit) whereas I'm using 2 and still have just as much raw removal, considering Spotless can be on multiple allies a good amount of the time and remove a hex every 5 seconds and CoP can remove multiple hexes from myself.

ds isnt there as much for hex removal (i might as well take a diff df skill then) as it is for e management.
and you dont get to keep spotless on multiple targets unless you get lucky with halfed recharge, in which case deny is again a stronger immediate hex removal.
on a side note, deny+spotless combo is another nasty combo to play against as hexer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Hex removal isn't a quick condition to win just because they have hexes, though. You yourself feel that your bar should almost always be able to hold up and not die through pressure. How do you expect your own team to quickly defeat the opposing team if they have similar amounts of defense then? You can't have it both ways. It comes down to longer wars of attrition.

thats why you stay in a team that can kill in a fairly reasonable amount of time, as long as its hex free and can deal with woh spam and some blind spam here and there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

A good ranger is of course king in 4v4. You don't NEED it to get the 25 wins, though. I wouldn't at all mind getting a team of 3 (good) Assassins if I'm on Monk.

assassins and good have a mutual avoidance policy. spamming sw on a target and then "spiking" it down isnt exactly good, its just pressing your keys in the right order.

moreoever, they'll wipe to hexes. empathy, insidious, faint, vor - a few attacks or attack skills and they'll explode.
they can win easily vs non hexers (or perhaps against a lonesome hexer) by just linebacking thou - happened to me once against 3 sins with 3 types of warrior kd elites. but it was a long and painful match, just the kind you like to give as an example vs b surgers when you dont have cond removal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariena Najea

Going into RA without condition removal while Monking is asking for long, boring matches (see also: playing Bsurge). Apart from the Assassins (easy to play), most of the physicals have extreme difficulty scoring kills as it is, and don't need Weakness and Blind on them. Unless you get a team with a MB Ele, Stoning nonsense, or other midliner with reasonable offensive pressure, your damage output will be minimal. When going for glad points, I *always* bring Draw for conditions, and two hex removals, since I don't want a potential 25 streak to take 3 hours. Even when I occasionally run MR, I still bring dual hex removal (Veil + Deny, with Divine Spirit) to keep things clean.

the most painful thing about ra isnt b surge - it is getting the right team, a competent team.
setups like r+w+random, or nec+mes+some sort of damage are pretty much a guaranteed 25 wins. but getting such setups now, after the ridiculous ra district combining change, is almost impossible (unless you synch).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

but it costs less energy (since you aren't sitting there maintaining a Veil) and it removes a greater quantity of hexes for the energy spent as well. Removing cover hexes like Life Siphon actually has a more noticeable effect in 4v4 than GvG. Without party heals around, getting rid of that degen and preventing the regen on the Necro is more significant over time.

as i already mentioned, you will be spending 10 energy in effect, if you will want to prevent your spotless be removed by a necro.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

You already bring Spotless, though. The difference in our skill choices is Veil vs. CoP. Veil lets you remove hexes from others better but I find that Spotless is good enough. A significant amount of hexes are going to be targeted on you, especially from a VoR mes. The quicker cast of CoP is very favorable (slightly quicker recharge too), along with the double removal potential. Plus it removes conditions and heals, giving it a use outside of just hex removal.

i met a funny monk yesterday when i played a mesmer for a change - they had about half hp left when i cast vor on them and guess what they do. yes, they hit cop right away without any enchants on them.
in the long run, you will be spending 10 energy on self removal as well as ally removal, while with veil you only need to watch their mes a bit and cast it a few moments before the hex lands if you cannot maintain it anymore, but at the end you'll pay 5 energy for it, same as for deny.

Zuranthium · May 21, 2010, 05:09 AM // 05:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

what worked best in TA works best in RA too.

ff+ps necro is the ideal midline support you wanna get on your team

Of course, but you can't depend on getting that character on your team. Necros bringing FF into RA is rare these days.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

i actually did face 2 monks and a b surge ele (and a linebacking hammer warrior) just yesterday and we managed to get a kill (after a while) thanks to ranger rupting the blinds (was a dual blinder with b surge+bflash) and thanks to our frontline having signet of malice.

So you managed to get a team in which both of your physicals had self condi removal. Congrats? In my experience the chances of that are very low.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

ds isnt there as much for hex removal (i might as well take a diff df skill then) as it is for e management.
and you dont get to keep spotless on multiple targets unless you get lucky with halfed recharge, in which case deny is again a stronger immediate hex removal.

Sure, Deny is excellent...when you're dedicating another skill slot to Divine Spirit to power it. Divine Spirit by itself is not worth a skillslot; if you weren't running Deny and you had a spot open for e-management, Sig Rejuv would be a superior pick. It's only the synergy with Deny that makes DS worth bringing - it is an underpowered skill but it makes Deny "overpowered" and thus the two together are worthwhile. So, with this in mind, the fact is that you're using 3 skill slots to power your hex removal. I'm telling you I will NOT do that. I will only dedicate 2 skillslots to hex removal. As such, I've found Spotless and CoP to be the best combination.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

thats why you stay in a team that can kill in a fairly reasonable amount of time, as long as its hex free and can deal with woh spam and some blind spam here and there.

Finding decent teams is hard enough. I don't want to further limit myself to finding teams that also have the proper setup to deal with blind spam.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

assassins and good have a mutual avoidance policy. spamming sw on a target and then "spiking" it down isnt exactly good, its just pressing your keys in the right order.

You're definitely leaving out the factor of skill target swapping involves, which will also separate the level of effectiveness between two Assassins, but that's neither here nor there. We aren't debating the amount of skill it takes to play an Assassin. The simple fact is they are effective and you don't need to wait around for a good Ranger to get 25 wins.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

as i already mentioned, you will be spending 10 energy in effect, if you will want to prevent your spotless be removed by a necro.

Yes and no. Sometimes it was time to reapply Vig Spirit anyway so the cover is natural. At other times, using Spotless without a cover is less of a risk than using Veil without a cover. It's much harder for a hexer to detect Spotless than it is for them to detect Veil. When Veil is on someone, a huge sign appears to a competent hexer - HEY MY HEXES ARE TAKING TWICE AS LONG TO CAST. They will cancel-cast their hex and use an enchant strip on the Veil. Veil necessitates a cover more than Spotless does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

i met a funny monk yesterday when i played a mesmer for a change - they had about half hp left when i cast vor on them and guess what they do. yes, they hit cop right away without any enchants on them.

That's a funny story indeed but irrelevant since we are judging the power of a bar when it is played best, not when it is played poorly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

in the long run, you will be spending 10 energy on self removal.

You're not really spending 10 energy just for removal, as most of the time you were already spending that energy to heal yourself anyway. Casting Patient Spirit before CoP doesn't simply waste 5 energy, it heals you. And the 5 energy you're spending on CoP is not simply a hex removal, it is also a heal and condi removal. Removing Vig Spirits that have already gotten good mileage provides further synergy.